I'm trying to learn COBOL and -at this stage-
I'm learning it on gnucobol. I like TUIs.
I am not sure what I am doing on designing screens
is correct. I wonder if there are any best practices
or suggestions.
I am a COBOL developer
When I started way back when, we had programmers, systems programmers, and systems analysts. "Developers" back then meant real estate, construction, etc.
IDK when the techno title lingo changed. What's wrong with "programmer." Maybe some geeks thought it sounds too geeky, so they found a word to make them sound less geeky.
It's never bothered me to be called a programmer. Maybe I'll become a developer when I change careers to real estate.
people realized that writing software can be fairly complicated, and it's good to put thought into the overall design, or else you could end up with code that's hard to maintain.
Jcurtis wrote to Nightfox <=-
people realized that writing software can be fairly complicated, and it's good to put thought into the overall design, or else you could end up with code that's hard to maintain.
Most software design is trash. That's why normal people don't like computers.
Re: Cobol/gnucobol
By: Dumas Walker to DARKNETGIRL on Wed May 28 2025 09:10 am
I am a COBOL developer
When I started way back when, we had programmers, systems programmers, and systems analysts. "Developers" back then meant real estate, construction, etc.
IDK when the techno title lingo changed. What's wrong with "programmer." Maybe some geeks thought it sounds too geeky, so they found a word to make them sound less geeky.
It's never bothered me to be called a programmer. Maybe I'll become a developer when I change careers to real estate.
Jcurtis wrote to Nightfox <=-
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Re: Cobol/gnucobol
By: Nightfox to Jcurtis on
Wed May 28 2025 03:56 pm
people realized that writing software can be fairly complicated, and it's good to put thought into the overall design, or else you could end up with code that's hard to maintain.
Most software design is trash. That's why normal people don't like computers.
Windows back in the late 90s was far, far more unstable
Now they do everything on the phone
A lot of software is crappy though, at least by *my* expectations.
Windows back in the late 90s was far, far more unstable, and people HAD
to use computers.
Now they do everything on the phone, so can avoid
using a computer a lot of the time.
I am a COBOL developer
When I started way back when, we had programmers, systems programmers, and systems analysts. "Developers" back then meant real estate, construction, etc.
IDK when the techno title lingo changed. What's wrong with "programmer." Maybe
some geeks thought it sounds too geeky, so they found a word to make them soun
less geeky.
It's never bothered me to be called a programmer. Maybe I'll become a develope
when I change careers to real estate.
prefer a device with a bigger screen than a smartphone. A physical keyboard & a monitor is better than a smartphone & virtual keybaord for me. I thought a lot of people would be similar in this regard, but
maybe not.
I totally agree with you. When I have to reply to some message on phone, I usually reach for my small foldable bluetooth keyboard on which I can type using all fingers and fits into my pocket.
LOL, now you have me thinking about it. When I first hired on, my title
was Programmer/Analyst. As I moved up, it was Systems Engineer. It seems like "developer" entered the lingo when we started adding "distributed systems developers," which was not an official title -- those were the
folks that did programming for (usually) Microsoft Windows server-based systems.
It may have been, as more than one would later admit to me, because they didn't really know how to do the "bare bones" programming per-se. They
knew how to work the GUI framework tools to have as much of the code as possible generated for them, and how to tweak it to get it at least close
to what was asked for.
Eventually, management, the business analysts, and project leaders got to where they called us all "developers" and the name sort of stuck. ;)
Windows back in the late 90s was far, far more unstable
I have a stable Windows 3.11 setup. You need enough memory to eliminate
the paging file. There was a bug that persisted until Windows 98.
Phone touch screens don't suit my fingers. I like a computer keyboard.
I have yet to try programming anything in gnucobol.
So I might be able to answer some general coding questions, but probably
not many about coding interactive screens, and my "best practices" might include some long-standing bad habits. ;)
I have a stable Windows 3.11 setup. You need enough memory to eliminate the paging file. There was a bug that persisted until Windows 98.
windows around that time will still swapout to disk. there's no way to stop i it needs it.
I have a stable Windows 3.11 setup. You need enough memory to eliminate the paging file. There was a bug that persisted until Windows 98.
windows around that time will still swapout to disk. there's no way to stop i it needs it.
Not true for Windows 3.11.
Control Panel / 386 Enhanced / Virtual Memory / Change / Type / None
Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cobol/gnucobol
By: Boraxman to Jcurtis on
Thu May 29 2025 05:20 pm
Windows back in the late 90s was far, far more unstable,and people HAD
to use computers.
I agree, Windows back then was more unstable. It's one reason I sort
of had a love-hate relationship with Microsoft back then. I thought Windows was cool when I first started using it (with version 3.0), but
I later saw that it needed plenty of resources to run and was unstable, and there were arguably better alternatives (such as OS/2, etc.).
Now they do everything on the phone, so can avoidusing a computer a lot of the time.
Maybe for some people. However, one thing that I don't like about
using smartphones is the virtual keyboard. I took a typing class in school many years ago, and I can type a lot faster and more accurately
on a physical keyboard. Also, at least for the things I often like to
do, I prefer a device with a bigger screen than a smartphone. A
physical keyboard & a monitor is better than a smartphone & virtual keybaord for me. I thought a lot of people would be similar in this regard, but maybe not.
I spend more time correcting the autocorrections as I swipe theNightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cobol/gnucobol
By: Boraxman to Jcurtis
on Thu May 29 2025 05:20 pm
Windows back in the late 90s was far, far moreunstable, and people HAD
to use computers.
I agree, Windows back then was more unstable. It's one reason I
sort of had a love-hate relationship with Microsoft back then.
I thought Windows was cool when I first started using it (with
version 3.0), but I later saw that it needed plenty of resources
to run and was unstable, and there were arguably better
alternatives (such as OS/2, etc.).
Now they do everything on the phone, so can avoidusing a computer a lot of the time.
Maybe for some people. However, one thing that I don't like
about using smartphones is the virtual keyboard. I took a
typing class in school many years ago, and I can type a lot
faster and more accurately on a physical keyboard. Also, at
least for the things I often like to do, I prefer a device with
a bigger screen than a smartphone. A physical keyboard & a
monitor is better than a smartphone & virtual keybaord for me.
I thought a lot of people would be similar in this regard, but
maybe not.
Do you think the use of the virtual keyboard has significantly changes
how people compose their replies? In that they just write shorter, disjointed comments?
I hate using the phone to type. Its like eating spaghetti bolognaise
with chopsticks, one handed.
Re: Cobol/gnucobol
By: Dumas Walker to DARKNETGIRL on Wed May 28 2025 09:10 am
I have yet to try programming anything in gnucobol.
First of all, I am overwhelmed by the response.
I am suprised the groups are still active, I am experimenting
back with BBS after the bloated world of social media and Internet
(not the protocol, of course). So I need to get used again to
the editors & co ...
I understood that COBOL is more like German, i.e. in theory
that's the common language, but in practice there are so many
dialects there. I just started playing with gnucobol as a starting
point, perhaps I might embrace Mainframe (as MVS3.8j) or iSeries (ex
AS/400) as I have an account on pub400.com
That said, I believe gnucobol is pretty limited when it comes to
extensions, and that is also on screens. For example, is
I also have to say that I'm not a developer. I'm a glorified sysadmin
that mess with code sometimes. I just wanted something that has a
decent "easy" language instead of get headaches with stuff like Rust.
On Thu, 29 May 2025 10:46:25 -0700
"Darknetgirl" (VERT/RDBBS) <VERT/RDBBS!Darknetgirl@endofthelinebbs.com>
It's interesting that I get a lot of callers that are using bulletin
boards to escape social media. I think they're poised to make a huge
come back.
Microsoft's Surface tablet basiclaly did that, though that was an Intel device, whereas the ones I'm thinking of typically use ARM processors.
It's interesting that I get a lot of callers that are using bulletin
boards to escape social media. I think they're poised to make a huge
come back.
Jcurtis wrote to Dumas Walker <=-
I am a COBOL developer
When I started way back when, we had programmers, systems programmers,
and systems analysts. "Developers" back then meant real estate, construction, etc.
IDK when the techno title lingo changed. What's wrong with
"programmer." Maybe some geeks thought it sounds too geeky, so they
found a word to make them sound less geeky.
Jcurtis wrote to BORAXMAN <=-
Windows back in the late 90s was far, far more unstable
I have a stable Windows 3.11 setup. You need enough memory to eliminate the paging file. There was a bug that persisted until Windows 98.
Now they do everything on the phone
Phone touch screens don't suit my fingers. I like a computer keyboard.
A lot of software is crappy though, at least by *my* expectations.
It all went wrong around the time programmers thought they could
develop anything. That job belongs to senior systems analysts.
* SLMR 2.1a *
---
Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet
[vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
Dumas Walker wrote to JCURTIS <=-
LOL, now you have me thinking about it. When I first hired on, my
title was Programmer/Analyst. As I moved up, it was Systems Engineer.
It seems like "developer" entered the lingo when we started adding "distributed systems developers," which was not an official title --
those were the folks that did programming for (usually) Microsoft
Windows server-based systems.
It may have been, as more than one would later admit to me, because
they didn't really know how to do the "bare bones" programming per-se. They knew how to work the GUI framework tools to have as much of the
code as possible generated for them, and how to tweak it to get it at least close to what was asked for.
Eventually, management, the business analysts, and project leaders got
to where they called us all "developers" and the name sort of stuck.
;)
* SLMR 2.1a * I'll have one brain on drugs with bacon, toast and
juice. ---
Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
Rotorek wrote to Nightfox <=-
I totally agree with you. When I have to reply to some message on
phone, I usually reach for my small foldable bluetooth keyboard on
which I can type using all fingers and fits into my pocket.
Do you think the use of the virtual keyboard has significantly changes
how people compose their replies? In that they just write shorter,
disjointed comments?
I hate using the phone to type. Its like eating spaghetti bolognaise
with chopsticks, one handed.
Microsoft's Surface tablet basiclaly did that, though that was an Intel
device, whereas the ones I'm thinking of typically use ARM processors.
Actually, I think that Microsoft started to produce two versions of the surface. One is x86 compatible and the other one is ARM. Both are running Windows under the hood.
Forgive me. I work in Silicon Valley with executive thought partners and innovation accelerators, according to linkedin.
That just reminded me of a guy who did graphics work in the 2000s. He wanted a cheap way to demonstrate proofs to clients and to do some basic manipulation for them.
He settled on an Android tablet, installed DOSBOX, got Windows 3.11 running in it and installed Photoshop 4, which ran under Windows 3.x.
You could shock people at the coffee shop with an android tablet with a keyboard and Windows 3.11. :)
Re: Re: Cobol/gnucobol
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Jcurtis on Fri May 30 2025 07:51 am
That just reminded me of a guy who did graphics work in the
2000s. He wanted a cheap way to demonstrate proofs to clients
and to do some basic manipulation for them.
He settled on an Android tablet, installed DOSBOX, got Windows
3.11 running in it and installed Photoshop 4, which ran under
Windows 3.x.
You could shock people at the coffee shop with an android tablet
with a keyboard and Windows 3.11. :)
:) A while ago, I realized you could plug a USB mouse and keyboard
into a smartphone and they'll work. I imagine a tablet could double
as a laptop that way.
Several years ago, I set up DOSBOX on my PC to run old DOS games &
such. I also installed Windows 3.11 in it, and it actually runs
fairly well. I've also used DOSBOX to run a couple terminal programs (Telemate and Telix) to call into Telnet BBSes.. Takes me back to
the 90s.
Nightfox
Eventually, management, the business analysts, and project leaders got to where they called us all "developers" and the name sort of stuck. ;)
Sounds about right. Developers. Generic word for computer geeks of
all kinds. Easier for management to offshore.
I understood that COBOL is more like German, i.e. in theory
that's the common language, but in practice there are so many dialects there.
I just started playing with gnucobol as a starting point, perhaps
I might embrace Mainframe (as MVS3.8j) or iSeries (ex AS/400) as
I have an account on pub400.com
That said, I believe gnucobol is pretty limited when it comes to
extensions, and that is also on screens. For example, is
I also have to say that I'm not a developer. I'm a glorified sysadmin
that mess with code sometimes. I just wanted something that has a decent "easy" language instead of get headaches with stuff like Rust.
I would like to learn and I guess there's no better learning that read
some code. (any suggestion of some publicly available code?)
For example, maybe a stupid question, is it normal that a CRUD application has everything in a single COB file?
And is it normal that you
need to have a sort of "command" with a letter or a number to process
the CRUD (add, edit, update, delete)? Or I'm just doing something wrong?
It's interesting that I get a lot of callers that are using bulletin
boards to escape social media. I think they're poised to make a huge
come back.
It's interesting that I get a lot of callers that are using bulletin
boards to escape social media. I think they're poised to make a huge come
back.
As long as you can keep them out of the political echoes, which are just as bad as social media. ;)
you think we really went to the moon in 1969?
you think we really went to the moon in 1969?
Never looked into it much.
Do you think they had enough fuel to land, take off again, and make the return trip? Pictures of the craft make me wonder.
That just reminded me of a guy who did graphics work in the 2000s. He
wanted a cheap way to demonstrate proofs to clients and to do some basic manipulation for them.
He settled on an Android tablet, installed DOSBOX, got Windows 3.11
running in it and installed Photoshop 4, which ran under Windows 3.x.
You could shock people at the coffee shop with an android tablet with a keyboard and Windows 3.11. :)
Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
We help efficiently operationalize strategies, using management's philosophy to effectively enhance corporate synergies.
https://youtu.be/GyV_UG60dD4?si=ugBBeYESjr7NOEbr
Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
:) A while ago, I realized you could plug a USB mouse and keyboard
into a smartphone and they'll work. I imagine a tablet could double as
a laptop that way.
I'm a software envisioneer.
Forgive me. I work in Silicon Valley with executive thought partners
and innovation accelerators, according to linkedin.
I just saw a video where a jailbroken Kindle can run Linux and act as an e-ink SSH console. That's my next project. that might support a bluetooth keyboard...
I worked in local government which had titles that made no sense, until
you realize that they were a union shop and the titles were negotiated
when they had a server room full of AS/400s. Applications programmer,
Systems analysts, Systems Analyst.
What that devolved into was a caste system where applications
programmers fixed your Outlook problem but wouldn't move your monitor
or keyboard. Systems analysts would come and move hardware, swap out
monitors, replace mice and so forth. It made no sense whatsoever, meant
the hardware guys were paid less, and complicated issues with
customers.
As long as you can keep them out of the political echoes, which are just as bad as social media. ;)
By the way, what do you think of the Earth possibly being flat? And do you think we really went to the moon in 1969? ;) (kidding)
A lot of software is crappy though, at least by *my* expectations. What
I think is hot garbage (like Discord), other people seem to like.
It all went wrong around the time programmers thought they could
develop anything. That job belongs to senior systems analysts.
I'm a software envisioneer.
Forgive me. I work in Silicon Valley with executive thought partners
and innovation accelerators, according to linkedin.
I may borrow these titles for my linkedin profile. :D
Digital Man wrote to Boraxman <=-
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Re: Re: Cobol/gnucobol
By: Boraxman to Jcurtis on
Thu May 29 2025 05:20 pm
A lot of software is crappy though, at least by *my* expectations. What
I think is hot garbage (like Discord), other people seem to like.
Discord desktop app or mobile app or web app?
Jcurtis wrote to NIGHTFOX <=-
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you think we really went to the moon in 1969?
Never looked into it much.
Do you think they had enough fuel to land, take off again, and make the return trip? Pictures of the craft make me wonder.
Dumas Walker wrote to POINDEXTER FORTRAN <=-
I worked in local government which had titles that made no sense, until
you realize that they were a union shop and the titles were negotiated
when they had a server room full of AS/400s. Applications programmer,
Systems analysts, Systems Analyst.
So, I must know, what is the difference between the last two? ;)
it could be faked. The arguments for it being faked seemed so easily debunked.
That and the Russians would certainly have caught the US faking it. They would have been able to tell if nothing went up.
I coded on iSeries professionally.
Your sentence got cut off here.
code. I will poke around here and see what I might have.
Last I checked, IBM did have their COBOL language reference available online.
I would expect that a CRUD application would be like that, so that the code that interacts with the database could at least partially be reused for each function. The end users may have also requested that all functions be contained in one application.
Not sure. I think by "command" you might mean the paragraph names.
That is a very simplistic example. If that turns out not to be what you are asking about, let me know and I will try again. :)
Nowadays, programmers are often called "software engineers". Anything is better than "coders". :-P
Now they do everything on the phone, so can avoid using a computer a lot of the time.
Not without tighter moderation. Most people won't put up with Troll Personality Disorder. All it takes is one to spoil the fun.
Modern software behaves as if it has ADHD. I'm beginning to think it is
programmed by mentally ill people, who give their software the
characteristic of someone like them.
Re: Cobol/gnucobol
By: Digital Man to Jcurtis on Wed May 28 2025 21:49:37
Nowadays, programmers are often called "software engineers". Anything is better than "coders". :-P
There's a great comedy song by Jonathan Coulton called "Code Monkey", bemoaning the life of a "coder". You can find it on YouTube.
Most of my friends are coders. All of them have the mentality that they are in it for the money. They end their shift and they don't code a single line more until the very next day. While at work, the goal is to fulfill assigned tasks within the deadline so the boss is happy - if they have to throw a horde of libraries at a problem then that is acceptable unless the project manager complains.
Re: Re: Cobol/gnucobol
By: Jcurtis to nelgin on Fri May 30 2025 08:11 am
Not without tighter moderation. Most people won't put up with Troll Personality Disorder. All it takes is one to spoil the fun.
I would take six hundred MROs than a single RPGnet moderator.
The reason is simple. Trolls you can deal with. A single asshole moderator means the platform becomes worthless.
In fact I would argue that the strength of alternative nets is that it is
I would argue that the strength of alternative nets is that it is not
held hostage by a single moderator or operator.
I would argue that the strength of alternative nets is that it is not
held hostage by a single moderator or operator.
Their users are a tiny minority. Don't look strong to me.
I coded on iSeries professionally.
That's amazing! Many years ago, second half of 90s, I was at the
AS/400 support center. Unfortunately I probably wasn't savvy enough
to learn COBOL on AS/400. it felt so difficult back then.
I think I have a book on COBOL on AS/400 in the garage that I have to
get back to life. I was much enjoying networking.
Just to set the expectations, I'm writing a simple app to catalog some collectables. It has a single indexed file at the moment.
It wasn't what I meant, but you actually answered me in the example
you provided.
What I meant was something like:
"(A)dd, (E)dit, (D)elete, (E)xit => _"
In your example code was stored in the variable PROCESS-INDICATOR
It was! But there's so much to learn.
At the end, I just want to have a bit of fun.
That and the Russians would certainly have caught the US faking it. They would have been able to tell if nothing went up.
Do you think the use of the virtual keyboard has significantly changes how people compose their replies? In that they just write shorter, disjointed comments?
I was being sarcastic.. I tend to think it was more plausible that we did rather than faking it.
I just saw a video where a jailbroken Kindle can run Linux and act as an e-ink SSH console. That's my next project. that might support a
bluetooth keyboard...
Though the Windows one is also electron.
Back in the 80s coders were developing games using straight opcodes with no assembler nor nothing because if you used high level languages people would complain about performance.
Today, the people paying does not give a damn, therefore the people who codes does not either.
Re: Re: Cobol/gnucobol
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Sat May 31 2025 10:24:12
I just saw a video where a jailbroken Kindle can run Linux and act as an
e-ink SSH console. That's my next project. that might support a bluetooth
keyboard...
Very interesting. Got a link to the video?
Very interesting. Got a link to the video?https://github.com/Wint3rmute/arch-linux-on-kindle
I just saw a video where a jailbroken Kindle can run Linux and act as
e-ink SSH console. That's my next project. that might support a blueto
keyboard...
Things were a lot different back then. Programs were much smaller, less complicated, needed fewer resources, simpler architechure. Comparing then and now is like comparing a Volkswagon Beatle to a Tesla Model S.
There were indeed assemblers back then. I used one on a PET 8032 for my 6502 Machine Language class in college back in '80-81. Also, assemblers don't deal with high-level languages, just machine language.
From a coding perspective, unless the client is a data center or some such, the end-user shouldn't have to care. All that matters is they get a product that works as advertised.
The customer should care because when the developer decides to pull a library with 300 dependencies instead of writing half a dozen custom funtions he is forcing the customer to buy more RAM. When the developer uses a bad library that causes excess IO he is forcing the customer to upgrade his storage or networking gear. Basically, new school developing consists on passing on the expenses of inefficiency to the customer. It works because customers suck and deserve to die.
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